I Agree With the Catholic Church!
Well kinda. Occasionally they get it right (sort of) and then of course I'll agree with them.
Anyway it seems that Madonna ( no not THAT Madonna, the singing Madonna) is using the crucifix and a crown of thorns in her new concert tour. Is it as most Christians would agree, wrong? tasteless? immoral? anti Catholic? YES!, certainly it is on all counts. Should she be stopped?, forced not to do it? Well that should be up to each country she performs in. Here in the United States I'm afraid that because of what we represent as a country (freedom not Christianity) she should be allowed to do as she wishes as long as she breaks no current laws. Sorry but THAT is what this country is all about. That is what makes this country so great; so envied, our freedoms NOT our "Christian" principles. Christian principles are just one of the freedoms we are allowed to espouse, preach, teach and yes pray for. Want to boycott her concerts? forbid Christians from going to see her under threat of eternal damnation? Sure that's also your RIGHT, the right to disagree publicly.
So I thought I said I agree with the Vatican on this one? Well I do in the sense that it is all the things stated above. Taking it a step further Cardinal Ersilio Tonino, speaking with the approval of Pope Benedict XVI, has called for her excommunication. And further states "its an attempt on her part to generate publicity. I also agree with excommunicating her. After all its their ( the Vatican) "club', they set the rules and if you refuse to abide by them, then by all means they can cancel your membership.
My problem with these two point are simple really. First on Madonna using the crucifixion for publicity and shock effect, Isn't that exactly what the Vatican and Christians in general have done for almost 2,000 years? And with huge success I might add. Second is the excommunication part. Simple math would tell you that if your "club" had ten members and you kicked one out you will now have nine members right? Of course its right. Except Catholic math is different. I know this because I briefly promoted "voluntary excommunication" as a way of getting at the "real" number of Catholics worldwide. A way of publicly and in no uncertain terms letting the Vatican know you strongly disagree with them. And as I said earlier, its their "club" and if they want to throw me out that's their prerogative. I just thought I'd help them by leaving voluntarily. Kind of like a "you can't fire me I quit" type of thing.
Anyway back to Vatican math. A Catholic friend of mine who is more knowledgeable in Catholic everything than some priests pointed out to me that once you are baptized, you are put on their "rolls" FOREVER. For the rest of your life, no matter what you do, you will remain "counted" as Catholic.
Those were his words as best as I recollect..
I say this is done for accounting purposes. You see its financially beneficial to have more members. Any business that gets the most customers or members is automatically assumed to be the best place to go and shop right? The church is no different. Numbers equal clout, power if you will. And power is what counts in this world.
A final point (or question) about excommunication. Is it possible or even worth the effort to excommunicate someone who already quit and went to Kabbalah and whom your going to continue to "unofficially" count as Catholic anyway??? I just don't get their math that's all.
So I thought I said I agree with the Vatican on this one? Well I do in the sense that it is all the things stated above. Taking it a step further Cardinal Ersilio Tonino, speaking with the approval of Pope Benedict XVI, has called for her excommunication. And further states "its an attempt on her part to generate publicity. I also agree with excommunicating her. After all its their ( the Vatican) "club', they set the rules and if you refuse to abide by them, then by all means they can cancel your membership.
My problem with these two point are simple really. First on Madonna using the crucifixion for publicity and shock effect, Isn't that exactly what the Vatican and Christians in general have done for almost 2,000 years? And with huge success I might add. Second is the excommunication part. Simple math would tell you that if your "club" had ten members and you kicked one out you will now have nine members right? Of course its right. Except Catholic math is different. I know this because I briefly promoted "voluntary excommunication" as a way of getting at the "real" number of Catholics worldwide. A way of publicly and in no uncertain terms letting the Vatican know you strongly disagree with them. And as I said earlier, its their "club" and if they want to throw me out that's their prerogative. I just thought I'd help them by leaving voluntarily. Kind of like a "you can't fire me I quit" type of thing.
Anyway back to Vatican math. A Catholic friend of mine who is more knowledgeable in Catholic everything than some priests pointed out to me that once you are baptized, you are put on their "rolls" FOREVER. For the rest of your life, no matter what you do, you will remain "counted" as Catholic.
Those were his words as best as I recollect..
I say this is done for accounting purposes. You see its financially beneficial to have more members. Any business that gets the most customers or members is automatically assumed to be the best place to go and shop right? The church is no different. Numbers equal clout, power if you will. And power is what counts in this world.
A final point (or question) about excommunication. Is it possible or even worth the effort to excommunicate someone who already quit and went to Kabbalah and whom your going to continue to "unofficially" count as Catholic anyway??? I just don't get their math that's all.
posted by D. Coder | 4:29 AM
3 Comments:
I think you are confusing the Church's negative reaction to Madonna's tour antics. Anyone, including the Church, can say what they object to. It's free speech, remember? The church has the obligation to make comments about what it feels is not moral or not a good example. Don't all parents do this with their chidlren - Don't government agencies do this for the population. The church is not calling the cops on her but have a right to object.
Politicians and political parties make objections to what certain groups or other political parties do and the objection is free speech as is the original action.
What some people don't realize is that free speech means you can say or do what you want (as long as it is not illegal) and I can say or do whatever I want in response to it - both are free speech - that's what demonstrations are all about. Someone can call for an excommunication and get it, but that is about considering someone offically part of a group or not. It is not to do anything about her actions - she can still sing and do all she wants. The church has no power to stop her but it can make a public statement about what she does nor says, as we all can.
The idea that once a Catholic always a catholic more means that if you grew up catholic, not just being baptized, then you carry that experience through most of your life - it effects you. We can say that about most people about where they grew up - part of the country, different country, part of the world. Catholics say once baptized you are a christian whether you follow it or not. Catholics do not count in their offical roles those who do not practice catholicism to some degree - yes those who come once a year or less are probably checked in our box, but someone who is baptized in the Catholic tradition and later join some other group, christian or not, we don't continue counting them. If you don't reject it, you are still part of the group. Your friend may know more than some priests but does not know all.
The church can do what it wants about its members and it must since it has to consider the needs of the rest of the members.
Thank you for your comment. I think we tend to agree on most points, excepting their counting practices. On that I would venture a guess and say that if we were to tally "roll" counts of all religions in the world. it would probably exceed the total known population.
In reference to "Lobo's" comment:
[Catholics do not count in their offical roles those who do not practice catholicism to some degree - yes those who come once a year or less are probably checked in our box, but someone who is baptized in the Catholic tradition and later join some other group, christian or not, we don't continue counting them. If you don't reject it, you are still part of the group. Your friend may know more than some priests but does not know all.]
First of all I don't 'know it all' neither the author of this blog nor I ever stated that. I might add, neither do you.
I repeat, "once you are Baptized into The Catholic Church you are always a Catholic". For proof I quote The New Catechism of The Catholic Church.
Baptism permanent
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1280
An indelible spiritual mark . . .
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85
1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.
iamonetruth
Once we are Baptized into The Catholic Church we are brought into the family of God. We can disown our family, our inheritance, but we will always remain part of that family.
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